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	<title>Comments on: meandering through an idea or two&#8230;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://timkastelle.org/blog/2009/05/meandering-through-an-idea-or-two/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://timkastelle.org/blog/2009/05/meandering-through-an-idea-or-two/</link>
	<description>Tim Kastelle &#38; John Steen</description>
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		<title>By: innovation networks &#171; Innovation Leadership Network</title>
		<link>http://timkastelle.org/blog/2009/05/meandering-through-an-idea-or-two/comment-page-1/#comment-122</link>
		<dc:creator>innovation networks &#171; Innovation Leadership Network</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 01:27:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timkastelle.org/blog/?p=179#comment-122</guid>
		<description>[...] was thinking again about the discussion here last week about fuzzy concepts - in particular that of networks. In that post, I was trying to get at the value of the network [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] was thinking again about the discussion here last week about fuzzy concepts &#8211; in particular that of networks. In that post, I was trying to get at the value of the network [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://timkastelle.org/blog/2009/05/meandering-through-an-idea-or-two/comment-page-1/#comment-78</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 23:48:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timkastelle.org/blog/?p=179#comment-78</guid>
		<description>And Marco - Borges is in the air today - I also ran across &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.boingboing.net/2009/05/20/a-map-the-size-of-th.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this link referencing the map of the world story!&lt;/a&gt;

Weird.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And Marco &#8211; Borges is in the air today &#8211; I also ran across <a href="http://www.boingboing.net/2009/05/20/a-map-the-size-of-th.html" rel="nofollow">this link referencing the map of the world story!</a></p>
<p>Weird.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://timkastelle.org/blog/2009/05/meandering-through-an-idea-or-two/comment-page-1/#comment-77</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 23:42:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timkastelle.org/blog/?p=179#comment-77</guid>
		<description>Nice find Sam!  (I edited your comment to make the link cleaner...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice find Sam!  (I edited your comment to make the link cleaner&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: Sam MacAulay</title>
		<link>http://timkastelle.org/blog/2009/05/meandering-through-an-idea-or-two/comment-page-1/#comment-76</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam MacAulay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 23:25:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timkastelle.org/blog/?p=179#comment-76</guid>
		<description>I just stumbled on this via OrgTheory &lt;a href=&quot;http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&amp;lr=&amp;id=ud-DoqCSYmIC&amp;oi=fnd&amp;pg=PA61&amp;dq=marsden+boundaries+of+the+network&amp;ots=xy69BpHThX&amp;sig=vartwllLwuNlKzKdXvkPugJGcyg&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;link to book...&lt;/a&gt; 

certainly worth a read re: network boundary issues!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just stumbled on this via OrgTheory <a href="http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&amp;lr=&amp;id=ud-DoqCSYmIC&amp;oi=fnd&amp;pg=PA61&amp;dq=marsden+boundaries+of+the+network&amp;ots=xy69BpHThX&amp;sig=vartwllLwuNlKzKdXvkPugJGcyg" rel="nofollow">link to book&#8230;</a> </p>
<p>certainly worth a read re: network boundary issues!</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://timkastelle.org/blog/2009/05/meandering-through-an-idea-or-two/comment-page-1/#comment-75</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 22:25:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timkastelle.org/blog/?p=179#comment-75</guid>
		<description>Strangely Marco, I was thinking of that exact story yesterday!  And I agree, Borges is always useful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Strangely Marco, I was thinking of that exact story yesterday!  And I agree, Borges is always useful.</p>
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		<title>By: Marco</title>
		<link>http://timkastelle.org/blog/2009/05/meandering-through-an-idea-or-two/comment-page-1/#comment-69</link>
		<dc:creator>Marco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 01:32:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timkastelle.org/blog/?p=179#comment-69</guid>
		<description>Perhaps this quote from Borges might shed another light on Neil&#039;s comment (I do not think there is a single topic where reading Borges cannot be immensely helpful)

. . . In that Empire, the Art of Cartography attained such Perfection that the map of a single Province occupied the entirety of a City, and the map of the Empire, the entirety of a Province. In time, those Unconscionable Maps no longer satisfied, and the Cartographers Guilds struck a Map of the Empire whose size was that of the Empire, and which coincided point for point with it. The following Generations, who were not so fond of the Study of Cartography as their Forebears had been, saw that that vast Map was Useless, and not without some Pitilessness was it, that they delivered it up to the Inclemencies of Sun and Winters. In the Deserts of the West, still today, there are Tattered Ruins of that Map, inhabited by Animals and Beggars; in all the Land there is no other Relic of the Disciplines of Geography.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps this quote from Borges might shed another light on Neil&#8217;s comment (I do not think there is a single topic where reading Borges cannot be immensely helpful)</p>
<p>. . . In that Empire, the Art of Cartography attained such Perfection that the map of a single Province occupied the entirety of a City, and the map of the Empire, the entirety of a Province. In time, those Unconscionable Maps no longer satisfied, and the Cartographers Guilds struck a Map of the Empire whose size was that of the Empire, and which coincided point for point with it. The following Generations, who were not so fond of the Study of Cartography as their Forebears had been, saw that that vast Map was Useless, and not without some Pitilessness was it, that they delivered it up to the Inclemencies of Sun and Winters. In the Deserts of the West, still today, there are Tattered Ruins of that Map, inhabited by Animals and Beggars; in all the Land there is no other Relic of the Disciplines of Geography.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://timkastelle.org/blog/2009/05/meandering-through-an-idea-or-two/comment-page-1/#comment-67</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 12:57:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timkastelle.org/blog/?p=179#comment-67</guid>
		<description>Thanks for that Neil!  I&#039;m starting to think that the quality of the replies to this post is pretty substantially higher than the quality of the original post! :-D</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for that Neil!  I&#8217;m starting to think that the quality of the replies to this post is pretty substantially higher than the quality of the original post! <img src='http://timkastelle.org/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':-D' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Neil</title>
		<link>http://timkastelle.org/blog/2009/05/meandering-through-an-idea-or-two/comment-page-1/#comment-66</link>
		<dc:creator>Neil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 11:30:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timkastelle.org/blog/?p=179#comment-66</guid>
		<description>Marco’s relate directly to what I was discussing with Tim, John and Sam at UQ last month – misapplied analogies can be a form of category error, e.g. the fallacy of composition is a form of category error (“the aggregate is like an individual”). Could argue one way of looking at the phenomenon of emergence is that where it is applicable it is one way of avoiding reductionist category errors – but that’s for another blog. 

Taking the line that ‘everything is a network’ (which I know Tim set up as straw man, but bear with me), suppose we said “everything is a map” could we work back by analogy – bearing in mind Marco’s comments - from maps to networks (could ague that all networks are maps but not all maps are networks so is this really a proper analogy if we are dealing with a phenomenon that is just a subset? Again, good point Batman, but have to walk the dog in half an hour, so will move on).    

Suppose we want to develop a map with Brisbane as a focus (a) what it looks like depends on purpose – purpose-built map should be different for businesses, tourists, vehicles, cyclists etc (general purpose maps can show more than one purpose - and network) (b) what it looks like depends on scale – detailed scale would show cycle routes but not aircraft routes; zooming up with Brisbane reduced to a point, aircraft routes would appear and cycle routes disappear. 

Implications for networks? The network you see is not independent of purpose and what the observer puts into its construction. Example: work flow and value chain (or value network) in organizations can both/all be interpreted as networks but they are different in nature and in terms of their elements and relationships. And if pursuing Tim’s point about possibly going to use network as the basic principle for distinguishing different forms of economic governance (which I think is an interesting and promising approach) then it will depend on what constituents and principles are used to analyse networks here.  Trick is to develop a network description fit for purpose not just to explain what the network is but, crucially, where and why its boundaries are, which I think is Sam’s point.  

Some clues to construction of the network for the purposes of discriminating between forms may lie in the nature of control and ties as Tim says, though if my analogy holds we might ask what kind of control and what kind of ties. Though of course the absolutely crucial thing to bear in mind is – sod it, got to walk the dog ….

Neil</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marco’s relate directly to what I was discussing with Tim, John and Sam at UQ last month – misapplied analogies can be a form of category error, e.g. the fallacy of composition is a form of category error (“the aggregate is like an individual”). Could argue one way of looking at the phenomenon of emergence is that where it is applicable it is one way of avoiding reductionist category errors – but that’s for another blog. </p>
<p>Taking the line that ‘everything is a network’ (which I know Tim set up as straw man, but bear with me), suppose we said “everything is a map” could we work back by analogy – bearing in mind Marco’s comments &#8211; from maps to networks (could ague that all networks are maps but not all maps are networks so is this really a proper analogy if we are dealing with a phenomenon that is just a subset? Again, good point Batman, but have to walk the dog in half an hour, so will move on).    </p>
<p>Suppose we want to develop a map with Brisbane as a focus (a) what it looks like depends on purpose – purpose-built map should be different for businesses, tourists, vehicles, cyclists etc (general purpose maps can show more than one purpose &#8211; and network) (b) what it looks like depends on scale – detailed scale would show cycle routes but not aircraft routes; zooming up with Brisbane reduced to a point, aircraft routes would appear and cycle routes disappear. </p>
<p>Implications for networks? The network you see is not independent of purpose and what the observer puts into its construction. Example: work flow and value chain (or value network) in organizations can both/all be interpreted as networks but they are different in nature and in terms of their elements and relationships. And if pursuing Tim’s point about possibly going to use network as the basic principle for distinguishing different forms of economic governance (which I think is an interesting and promising approach) then it will depend on what constituents and principles are used to analyse networks here.  Trick is to develop a network description fit for purpose not just to explain what the network is but, crucially, where and why its boundaries are, which I think is Sam’s point.  </p>
<p>Some clues to construction of the network for the purposes of discriminating between forms may lie in the nature of control and ties as Tim says, though if my analogy holds we might ask what kind of control and what kind of ties. Though of course the absolutely crucial thing to bear in mind is – sod it, got to walk the dog ….</p>
<p>Neil</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://timkastelle.org/blog/2009/05/meandering-through-an-idea-or-two/comment-page-1/#comment-57</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 00:17:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timkastelle.org/blog/?p=179#comment-57</guid>
		<description>Agreed all the way through Sam!  And thanks for that link to the economic sociology blog - definitely an interesting post.

I think you&#039;re right on the issue of boundaries.  I also think that in looking at these fuzzy concepts, the other useful thing is to think about what testable propositions come from whatever angle you&#039;re taking (I&#039;m not always such a Popperian, but I think that this part is at least useful).  That goes a long way towards making the work useful...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed all the way through Sam!  And thanks for that link to the economic sociology blog &#8211; definitely an interesting post.</p>
<p>I think you&#8217;re right on the issue of boundaries.  I also think that in looking at these fuzzy concepts, the other useful thing is to think about what testable propositions come from whatever angle you&#8217;re taking (I&#8217;m not always such a Popperian, but I think that this part is at least useful).  That goes a long way towards making the work useful&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Sam MacAulay</title>
		<link>http://timkastelle.org/blog/2009/05/meandering-through-an-idea-or-two/comment-page-1/#comment-55</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam MacAulay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 00:07:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timkastelle.org/blog/?p=179#comment-55</guid>
		<description>hey Tim. Interesting post.  I&#039;ve followed the OrgTheory/Org.Markets debate on fuzzy concepts as well and found it very worthwhile.  Funnily enough, while you were posting this last night I just so happened to be reading this: http://contexts.org/economicsociology/2009/05/06/evolution-and-qualitative-sociology/ 

I tend to think that most interesting concepts are fuzzy.  I remember having a similar discussion to the one you had about meso-rules with Lars about epistemic communities.  i.e. everything&#039;s a bloody epistemic community!  Oh and, for good measure, everything&#039;s also a bloody network! 

I don&#039;t think this means that we should cease working with these concepts, because they&#039;ve got significant potential as descriptive and explanatory devices (I think Markus Becker&#039;s work on routines is a good example of this).  My thoughts on this issue has led me to the conclusion that what is crucial (and not done nearly often enough) is clearly specifying the boundary of the system you&#039;re hoping to say something useful about, why you&#039;ve chosen to limit the boundaries to this area, and the potential implications for explanation and prediction.   The first example that spring to mind here is Gay and Doussets (2005, 1459-1460): 

Gay, B., &amp; Dousset, B. 2005. Innovation and Network Structural Dynamics: Study of the Alliance Network of a Major Sector of the Biotechnology Industry. Research Policy. Vol. 34. Iss. 10; p. 1457.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hey Tim. Interesting post.  I&#8217;ve followed the OrgTheory/Org.Markets debate on fuzzy concepts as well and found it very worthwhile.  Funnily enough, while you were posting this last night I just so happened to be reading this: <a href="http://contexts.org/economicsociology/2009/05/06/evolution-and-qualitative-sociology/" rel="nofollow">http://contexts.org/economicsociology/2009/05/06/evolution-and-qualitative-sociology/</a> </p>
<p>I tend to think that most interesting concepts are fuzzy.  I remember having a similar discussion to the one you had about meso-rules with Lars about epistemic communities.  i.e. everything&#8217;s a bloody epistemic community!  Oh and, for good measure, everything&#8217;s also a bloody network! </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think this means that we should cease working with these concepts, because they&#8217;ve got significant potential as descriptive and explanatory devices (I think Markus Becker&#8217;s work on routines is a good example of this).  My thoughts on this issue has led me to the conclusion that what is crucial (and not done nearly often enough) is clearly specifying the boundary of the system you&#8217;re hoping to say something useful about, why you&#8217;ve chosen to limit the boundaries to this area, and the potential implications for explanation and prediction.   The first example that spring to mind here is Gay and Doussets (2005, 1459-1460): </p>
<p>Gay, B., &amp; Dousset, B. 2005. Innovation and Network Structural Dynamics: Study of the Alliance Network of a Major Sector of the Biotechnology Industry. Research Policy. Vol. 34. Iss. 10; p. 1457.</p>
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